Curse

Cebe · Jul 18, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

In an ongoing attempt to improve and update my sticky I'm trying to put together a table for the F.A.Q. Section of the stickied guide indicating suitable elite skills for new players to unlock for heroes. I'm experiencing numerous people asking what one elite they should unlock for their heroes for the time being. Therefore I propose this:

(Oh and yea, while I realise Prophecies and Factions have no heroes, those who own those campaigns + Eye of the North still ask questions on this so...I might clarify the table for the final draft)

I'm putting it out there because often my logic isn't to everyone's tastes! Please let me know any thoughts you have, with reasoning behind it, so that I can make changes as necessary and insert it into the sticky when a final decision is made.

Just a couple of notes:

Elementalist is really hard to choose from. Well, Prophecies has to be Elemental Attunement. I always found Factions to be superb for Earth Magic and Unsteady Ground is great on Heroes, but my issue is it only focuses one one element, that's not all that popular. Nightfall is really hard. I'm not so sure on Savannah Heat...
Paragons: DA. Not such a great elite for people who play Physicals - but still an amazing defensive skill for other caster heroes...any thoughts on this one especially?
For Assassins Siphon Strength may seem like an odd choice, but I find it's very easy for Heroes to use. The AI is good at hexing, and the hex's effects are quite beneficial.

Is this table even a good idea? If not please let me know...

Thanks for your help.

zwei2stein · Jul 18, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

This a bit too complex advice to give to summarize in one simple table.

You should think about different builds, one elite per class/chapter is sometimes too little and sometimes you want seccondary profession elite. And lots of it is about personal taste (siphon strenght is fine example) and sometimes you are suggesting overkill (discord is currently at rage but i would suggest inexperienced person to unlock icy veins as they are more usefull in NM)

People should be able to choose from 2 to 3 elites.

Anyway, my comments:

Ele, add Shatterstone as seccond to Factions option and SF as seccond NF option.
Warrior, add Earthshaker for proph, replace Cleave with Cripslash in NF
Necromancer, add AoTL to proph, replace sdicord with icy veins.
Mesmer, add Assassins Promise to Fac.
Ranger, i would repalce melandrus with barrage for proph and prepared with burning arrow in NF.
Assassin, add barrage to prophecies (sigh, but better than no use for anton for Gwen/Proph people)
Paragon, add charge for prohp, add cruel spear for NF and Empathic Removal to factions.

Cebe · Jul 18, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Are you saying the table in itself is a bad idea, or that it should be amended to contain options?

I am in full agreement that there are many great Elites for heroes and in some instances it's just too difficult to choose between them.

Nice idea suggesting 2nd profession options, especially for heroes like Hayda, for whom Prophecies + EotN only players will have very few skills for. Also...Assassin's Promise in that case should go under Mesmer Hero to keep upier quiet!

So perhaps then it should be a table of "good elites" from each campaign, rather than the form it is in now, in order to steer new players away from bad elite choices for heroes when they are having to make economical choices on what to unlock. Yes, that sounds much better I think.

Table Edited:

Note: * = Secondary Profession Elite.

zwei2stein · Jul 18, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Are you saying the table in itself is a bad idea, or that it should be amended to contain options?

I meant that it should contain more options, something like your seccond version, which looks much better. Now you only need several people to agree on what elites belong there

Sindy · Jul 18, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I like the idea of 2ndary elites for those with P+E and a non-core hero. As far as what to include in the table, there is going to be imbalance. Take a proph elementalist: Attunement without question. But NF, I like the two choices but also might throw mind blast, SF, even sandstorm I've found heros to use pretty effectively.

If someone is coming to your table asking "what elite should I unlock" I feel it is probably better to give them *one* choice. It won't have to be the best elite there is, and there can always be others that work just as well, but it allows the new person to just grab one elite, throw some complimentary skills around it, and go; rather than the follow-up question "Ok, so which of these (2...3...7) should I choose?"

As far as the table you have now: I like that 2nd one. Would they be my first choices? Not all the time, but I'm not your target audience. I think for new players that just want an elite for their heros, it looks sound.

.

Messy · Jul 18, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I think it is a great idea for the target audience, which is newer players.

I see this table as a good starting point for those that are unsure what elites to get for their heroes. As they move along, become more familiar with other professions, their choices might change, but for starters.... awesome.

Oh, suggestions, I would move the edited table to your original post, and merge all the important information there.

Cebe · Jul 18, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Now you only need several people to agree on what elites belong there

That's what I'm hoping for. BTW, I missed your suggestion of Barrage on Proph Rangers before...I'll sort it next time I draft the table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindy

If someone is coming to your table asking "what elite should I unlock" I feel it is probably better to give them *one* choice.

There are quite often a couple of good elites, and I don't want to sound too dictatorial. It's also far too difficult, and not appropriate, to only suggest one elite for Elementalists. Even though Elemental Attunement is fine for all, Unsteady Ground is too good not to mention.

I don't find heroes use Mind Blast well enough to warrant suggesting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindy

As far as the table you have now: I like that 2nd one. Would they be my first choices? Not all the time, but I'm not your target audience. I think for new players that just want an elite for their heros, it looks sound.

But what would be your first choices? That's the point of this thread...I want to get it as "sorted" as possible before it goes into the main sticky. Let me know and the table can be altered as required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messy

I see this table as a good starting point for those that are unsure what elites to get for their heroes. As they move along, become more familiar with other professions, their choices might change, but for starters.... awesome.

Yep. But I think this is too big not to run past other people who will be able to see skills from an other perspectives. I don't want to insert it into the sticky without people being happy with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messy

Oh, suggestions, I would move the edited table to your original post, and merge all the important information there.

I considered that, but I wanted to keep a record of it's development for my own benefit. This thread shouldn't be around too long anyway. When it's sorted I'll close.

Sindy · Jul 18, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

It's also far too difficult, and not appropriate, to only suggest one elite for Elementalists.

Fair enough. There are certainly elites that shine way more than others. Since you already caught barrage (which should probably be in every ranger slot since it's core and sweet) here is a few thoughts:

I can see why shatterstone was suggested, but i'm not its biggest fan considering the other two elites on your table.

Searing flames I'll agree with it's addition.

*edit* I read what i wrote, and even *I* don't agree with me. Heal is the way to go for general heros.

Other than that, I really can't say I see much more to add/subtract from your list. And I tried

Unless there are some major hero issues with these skills I don't know about, I think it looks good. Great job.

Washi · Jul 19, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindy

Since you already caught barrage (which should probably be in every ranger slot since it's core and sweet)

You gotta be kidding... just no.

-Lotus- · Jul 19, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

good idea. make sure to list ether renewal for the ele though

Sindy · Jul 19, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

You gotta be kidding... just no.

Not a fan I take it? Any reason? I'm for it becuase I find heros spam it pretty regularly and I don't like them spending time with preps in the generally shorter NM PvE battles (nor do I spend a lot of time prepping before hand).

Admittedly, I don't bring hero rangers in general since the group I usually run with has a human ranger. 2:1 so far, may want more input on Barrage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

make sure to list ether renewal for the ele though

No doubt heros are a lot more attentive to keeping up their enchantments than I am, but I haven't personally tried it. Might give Proph people another choice though.

DarkSpirit · Jul 19, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Looks like most of the standard hero elites have already been mentioned so I dont know what else to add.

Personally, I also like [[Weapon of Quickening] on my Rit or N/Rt, but that is not in any of the "standard" hero builds.

Washi · Jul 19, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindy

Not a fan I take it? Any reason? I'm for it becuase I find heros spam it pretty regularly and I don't like them spending time with preps in the generally shorter NM PvE battles (nor do I spend a lot of time prepping before hand).

Beacause ranger is a utility profession, and this skill is supposed to deal some damage. If you want to deal damage you do not take a ranger cause other profesions do it better, if you do take a ranger it's because of what he does best (interruption, condition spread, etc).

[skill]Punishing Shot[/skill]
[skill]Broad Head Arrow[/skill]
[skill]Burning Arrow[/skill] / [skill]Magebane Shot[/skill]

Cebe · Jul 21, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Ok, next draft. I think it's just about done, but I'll stick it here for a day or so in case anyone has any final comments:

Sindy, on your suggestions of Mind Blast and Zealous Benediction. I just don't feel Heroes use these skills consistently well enough to suggest them as good elites to new players.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

Sindy · Jul 21, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Yeah, I was hoping I edited out ZB before anyone saw it. Not fast enough I guess

The only thing I still sort of disagree with is the inclusion of shatterstone. It is currently the only one with 3 choices, and I know when I was a new player Ele=AoE.

But that's me and it's not a big enough disagreement for me to complain too much. Thanks for the consideration.

Cebe · Jul 22, 2008, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindy

No doubt heros are a lot more attentive to keeping up their enchantments than I am, but I haven't personally tried it. Might give Proph people another choice though.

I tried an Ether Renewal build on a hero last night, and I have to say, it's pretty amazing. It allows a hero to chuck out Rodgort's Invocation as often as it can be bothered to, and you can slip in some sweet utility on top.

Thanks for the input guys. I may remove Shatterstone from the table however. I just wonder if Water Magic is too complex an element for newbies trying to make off-the-cuff hero builds.

Edit: Adding to Sticky. /Locked.